Happy Hour Flix | HHF
HAPPY HOUR FLIX is a podcast all about the movies you love and love to talk about and hosted by Matt Mundy and Steven Pierce featuring a special guest in each episode. A nostalgic look at what you grew up watching and how they still impact us today.
As always, we invite you to grab a beverage and enjoy the stories, and reminisce with us.
Happy Hour Flix | HHF
"The Muppet Christmas Carol" | with guest James Allerdyce
HAPPY HOUR FLIX is a podcast all about the movies you love. A nostalgic look at what we grew up watching and how they still impact us today.
As the snow blankets the streets and the scent of mulled wine fills the air, we can't help but feel the warmth of holiday nostalgia—especially when it comes to the timeless classic, "The Muppet Christmas Carol." This episode is a toast to that festive magic, with a special spotlight on the film's endearing blend of Charles Dickens's prose and the Muppets' signature humor. Hosts Steven Pierce and Matt Mundy with guest James Allerdyce, delve into a festive debate on the film's character utilization and raise our Fozziweggnogs (yes, that's vodka, coffee liqueur, and Ronnie Brooke eggnog) to the seasonal traditions that define our holiday spirit.
For this particular cocktail, in the spirit of the season - Matt himself stepped up to be our bartender, providing variation of a personal favorite holiday drink his family has enjoyed for multiple generations. And thanks to our friends over at MISGUIDED SPIRITS as always for helping make that happen.
For this muppet loving friends, this is how to make our "Fozziweggnog!"
2 parts Misguided Crooked Vodka
1 part coffee liqueur
2 parts Ronnybrook (brand) eggnog
shaken hard and strained over ice
...with nutmeg to taste garnish
Now we know that the Muppets have a special way of tugging at our heartstrings while leaving us in stitches, and their take on Dickens's classic tale is no different. Join us as we explore the impact of Jim Henson's legacy on the art of puppetry and storytelling, how the film honored Dickens's original work, and the undeniable chemistry between Gonzo and Rizzo the Rat. Whether it's the laughter shared over Michael Caine's dance moves or the wonder at the film's practical effects and puppeteering precision, this episode is a treasure trove for fans of cinema and storytelling alike.
Revisiting "The Muppet Christmas Carol," we're reminded of its unique standing in film history—a balance of humor and heart, with a touch of Victorian ghost story charm.
We'll scrutinize the creative decisions behind the adaptation, revel in the technical mastery of Muppet puppetry, and consider the timeless emotional resonance that makes this film a holiday must-watch year after year. So settle in with your own glass of festive cheer and celebrate the timeless joy of the season with us, all while basking in the enduring spirit and laughter of the Muppets.
A quick reminder, no matter where you are listening to us, if you could rate us and drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, we’d be so grateful - it really helps us spread the good vibes. Thank you!
HAPPY HOUR FLIX is produced by James Allerdyce and Lori Kay, and hosted by Steven Pierce and Matt Mundy
Main Title is by Johnny Mineo
Happy Hour Flix | Movies You Love
Despite how it looks, michael Cain is actually the only one without a stick up his ass. It's the Muppet Christmas Carol, the Year 1992, we've got Reservoir Dogs, unforgiven Aladdin, son of a Woman, a Few Good Men, bram Stoker's Dracula, last of the Mohicans, batman Returns, home Alone 2, one of my favorites Army of Darkness, wayne's World, malcolm X. The list goes on, but of course our movie today, the Muppet Christmas Carol. Also out that year were TV movies. They were huge back in the early 90s. We had Two Grandmothers' House we Go with Ashley and Mary Kate. Olson Christmas in Connecticut, directed by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Chris Christofferson in that one, and Tony Curtis. So be sure to check that one out. But this was December 11th, it was 6th in the box office. It got crushed. A few good men Home Alone 2, bodyguard Aladdin, distinguished Gentlemen, all above. Anyway, that's enough of that, let's get into it. But first of all, welcome in to with me today in studio Steven.
Speaker 3:Pierce hey, what's up Matt? Oh man, I love this movie. I watched this fucker twice In preparation for this in 24 hours. And of course, we're ending the year with a very special guest. We just have him back, our friend Mr James Allardice, one more time producer and good buddy extraordinaire.
Speaker 2:Is it a bad sign that I'm the guest on the show? Does that mean the show's not doing well?
Speaker 3:No, that means you did so well. You have to come. We've brought you right back immediately. Yeah, you got that right.
Speaker 1:Kate McKinnon.
Speaker 2:I'm not comfortable, you know, doing a monologue. That's not a character. So oh well, in that case, do you want to? It's an SNL, kate McKinnon.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah of course, yeah, in that case let's get you right away with your favorite Fawzi beer Dude. I was thinking of all the Muppets this movie is like. It's like all the B level Muppets, like Kermit is like in it. Miss Piggy has like two or three lines like she's barely in this movie. Fawzi's not even in it at all. No, I mean nowhere. Oh, fawzi is, yeah, he's Mr Fezziwig. But I mean, come on, he's Fawzi the bear Rubber chicken plant. Yeah, he's like the co-star of all the big Buppet movies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you do have one that has one of the best roles, which is Gonzo the Great.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:And Kermit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I mean Kermit, yes, but okay, gonzo, totally unexpected, and I think this was like growing up, one of my favorite Muppet movies. I think this was one of my favorite Christmas movies Fuck it. This might be one of my favorite movies like Top 10.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, I think so. It's easy Top 10, I mean it might be Top 5.
Speaker 3:This movie's awesome, like how it's not on, you know, afi's Top 100. I don't know, it's not. No, no, no, no, no, no, no it's no respect for the Muppets.
Speaker 1:Oh man, well, we have to cheers to the Muppets with our holiday cocktail and the aforementioned Fawzi the bear. James, not going to make you do it in a Fawzi or Kermit voice, but what do we got going on today?
Speaker 2:Well, we got to. You know, I don't have the recipe in front of me.
Speaker 3:Oh, you know, okay, tell me this one is a special like this is one that you brought.
Speaker 1:Matt, yes, yeah, I figured for the end of the year. I wanted to bring something you know close to home. I wanted to do my dad's recipe, but that literally takes like three days. And eggnog, yeah, eggnog.
Speaker 2:But you know, and I actually do have the recipe, well, you do, I haven't started drinking it. So what have we got? What are we got? It's the Fawzi wegnog and you know it's made with two parts misguided crooked vodka, which you know we love, our folks over at misguided spirits.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you guys.
Speaker 2:So you put two parts of that in there. You put one part coffee liqueur and two parts Ronnie Brooke eggnog, which is, you know, that's the part that you were pretty excited about. Oh, I love Ronnie Brooke. They make the best eggnog Shake and import over ice. So vodka, coffee liqueur and eggnog.
Speaker 3:And this has a little nutmeg on top. I see that's correct, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, here we go.
Speaker 2:Cheers to you all Merry Christmas.
Speaker 3:Happy holidays to everyone. If you've not watched them up at Christmas Carol yet, go turn that on right now. Pull up your favorite eggnog, ronnie Brooke, we know is yours, matt.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly. But whatever yours is, make just this. This is how you make it. It is one of the best. It's an easy one to go. If you're interested, slide into my DMs and hit me up about the my dad's recipe, because that is that and you were inviting people to slide into your DMs to get your eggnog. Yeah, Can we All right Moving on?
Speaker 3:We do the show not edited, so yeah, I mean, I just am saying you can't just throw, you can't just. I mean I guess Matt Mundy can wheel that out there. So just DM at your own risk. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1:Well, you know it's. It's a nice being known, All right, so this is the speaking of being known?
Speaker 2:real quick guys. It's the end of the year. This has been a fun show to be a part of and we played in 15 countries. We had listeners in 15 countries and our top three episodes. Can you guess them? Top three episodes.
Speaker 3:I'm going to guess it's a mad, mad, mad mad world. That's number three, three Willy three Willy.
Speaker 2:That's number one.
Speaker 1:That's the most listened to night of the creeps.
Speaker 2:No. I wish it was the creeps is a great episode, but it's actually free willies. The most listened to episode seven with Matt Walter.
Speaker 3:Interesting, okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Must be just a big fan base there. And it's a mad, mad mad world with Dana Snyder from aqua teen hunger for us to be fair, it's a mad, mad, mad mad mad world. There's five five, five Interesting. The last year the stats only got three.
Speaker 1:Really, really, yeah, all right, interesting, look at that Left at Tom or AI producers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, congrats guys and cheers to next year.
Speaker 3:Cheers to next year. So next year. I mean, this movie is a banger from the fucking start. The model it pulls out over on the top, over the rooftops, oh yeah, looks awesome. It just feels like Frank Oz magic.
Speaker 1:Yep, it really does. Yeah, it feels great and coming into the world because obviously it's a, you're seeing a set, but like you feel immersed by the time you get down into the city streets and you know and one of my favorite things is in it's super thematic is they start talking about food and this entire movie has more food references in it than you know. Celine Dion has high D's like this.
Speaker 3:Everything they start and I love it, rizzo starts by I mean, look, you get the van hot, even the veggies like him.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like the vegetables, like him, and then I mean everything. And then Rizzo is. I love that Rizzo and Gonzo are selling apples in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, rizzo, perpetually eats apples through the whole movie and the and, of course, jelly beans and jelly beans, jelly beans, jelly beans.
Speaker 2:I love that you kick it off with the magic, though because that is what this movie is.
Speaker 2:There's so much magic to it. And, yeah, flying in over you know all the flying over the town always stuck with me as a kid and I was watching it this time and thinking, you know, I think part of that is because it's real, that that's a real practical both model and set you know that they're using and I think there's always something to that, at least for me. You know, it's just never the same. When it's a, you know, animated, generated thing, it's like when it's a real model, you can you feel like you're actually there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the brain knows like, yeah, I mean, I want to see, I mean how they did that opening shot. It is a long pull and it's over a model. It looks like, yes, yeah, a very long pull. And then obviously there's a rope at the end where they bring in the, the, the, the rooftop in the foreground with the camera movement. They kind of like masking, cutting to a new scene, but again, like very good old camera trickery that just holds up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean one of my favorite little moments, of course, is everybody got a role Except for Rizzo. It's one of my favorite credits, you know, moment Rizzo as himself, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a bold. I mean this is the introduction of Rizzo the rat, isn't it? I don't know. I think this is the introduction of Rizzo. Oh, I didn't interest, if I'm not wrong. Okay, maybe you see, maybe his Muppet Treasure Island. Is he in Rizzo and Muppet?
Speaker 1:Treasure Island, muppet, treasure Island. Yeah, with Tim Curry.
Speaker 3:Yes, with Tim Curry, which is my, I think, second favorite.
Speaker 1:Muppet movie, that one's good. I mean, I can't get away from Muppets. Take Manhattan.
Speaker 3:I mean, yeah, there's so many good ones. I mean, but the this? I think this is the introduction of Rizzo the rat, if I remember correctly.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll come back to that one.
Speaker 2:Online it says that he did. You know this may be the first you know big role of his. He was first seen in an episode of the Muppet show with Christopher Reeve oh, okay, and Rizzo was one of the rats trying to mug him or something.
Speaker 3:Oh, got it. Maybe this is like his first major one, but I remembered Rizzo. It was like a big and he's like so awesome in this movie. I mean he's, I mean bringing the comedy left and right, I mean.
Speaker 1:God, how Rizzo and Gonzo weren't like forever linked after this because they were perfect, pitch perfect. I loved, and you know, and it's pretty well known now that Gonzo was not the first idea to have, you know that they weren't even going to have A narrator, yeah, but it was Jeweled. One of the writers obviously Charles Dickens was the other one Right Suggested it because they he loved the prose so much.
Speaker 3:Sure, and then even the way the movie, the first line of the book, which is what's so awesome about these, these, these kind of classic. You know the Muppets turn these classic things in. It reminds me of Looney Tunes with like orchestra music, but you know, it's like the Marleys were dead to begin with. What a killer opening line. It's so good. It harkens back to that time when writers were like I mean the first words on the page. You know, call me Ishmael, you know what I mean Like they're like this. The hook is so immediate and so strong and so intriguing and they just it's fun how they even handle it here, but they pay homage to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And they, I mean what was? And it's not like he was a one hit wonder. I mean this guy wrote so many like ones that right off the top just grabbed you in. You know, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times Absolutely, and like it's. And then we think today it's interesting how we kind of harp on well, we got to get their attention, you got to get their attention. Now and I'm like well, yeah, that's always been the case, it's always been there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, and like when you start that, well, like I'm in, I mean just the efficiency of that writing. I mean we're talking about Dickens now, but I mean still they honored it very well. There's been, I mean I think it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's right to talk about that because there's been, like what? 150 plus movie and television movie versions of this.
Speaker 3:Right, every single one. And what are your top? Okay, christmas story, not a Christmas story.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, what the hell is this called Christmas Carol? Christmas Carol.
Speaker 3:What are your favorite versions of the Christmas Carol? My top oh interesting, yeah, this one and honestly the next one for me I've been banging this drum for a year now is the new Apple TV movie Spirited Like. I'm a big, big fan of it. I think that they just hit it out of the park, and I think it is. It's my second favorite version of this, and then Scrooge is probably third.
Speaker 1:Scrooge does it for me. That's your favorite one. Yeah, scrooge, scrooge is my favorite. I mean, scrooge is my favorite if I'm in that mood, but if I just want to like feel good the whole time, I mean this is one of the sweetest movies without being saccharine. Yeah, of course. And then of course, you know, you have the Disney one, which I think gets a little saccharine. I do love it. And then of course there's the Is that the animated one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then there's I mean, there's so many, I could go on, but I do love I think it's and James helped me on this one. It's like I think from the 20s, alan something plays Scrooge. I can't think of it off the top of my head, but you know I'm not prepared there's.
Speaker 2:There's some good ones there's a hundred.
Speaker 1:There's over 150 of these, so but I think and Spirited as far as like the and you introduced me to that I finally, you know you banged the drum so hard my head came. I know I made you watch it this year, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I've been banging the drum in front of James forever and he's not going to watch it again.
Speaker 1:He's not going to do it last year and I guarantee he's not going to watch it this year.
Speaker 3:This is like that time when he told me like, so, like, emphatically he's like you got to go see the show at the public. It's really good, I saw it. It's Hamilton, you go see it.
Speaker 1:And I never went about someone who never was president.
Speaker 3:I was like yeah, right, I'll definitely go. I'll definitely go see this weird historic musical and then obviously you know how amazing that is. I feel the same way about Spirited and he's giving me the slow play. But I'm telling you you're going to be, you're going to feel late to the party man.
Speaker 1:You know. But that also, it does bring up the reminder here for me that almost all of these and this includes this one which is arguably the most faithful to the book, and even the people at the museum in London with the original, with one of the original printings of a Christmas Carol, say this is the most faithful version and yet it does something that almost every single one of them do. That's not faithful and I get it, but it didn't really register with me until rewatching it. This time You'll be visited by three spirits, right, right. And he wakes up and he's like what day is it? I did, don't know, yeah. And then, of course, the ghost of Christmas present is somehow showing him the future.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I've always noticed that about the ghost of Christmas present. He always shows the neck, he shows things that are about to happen and present is such like a but fluid Go ahead, go ahead. No, a fluid time, like it is, like it seems, within like 24 hours.
Speaker 1:Well, and I was going to say, though, because in the book it's not visited at each hour, it's each night. So it is the 27th, it's 25th, 26th and 27th ostensibly, when he's visited by the ghost of Christmas future. So he's technically missed Christmas. And then when he wakes up and says what day is it? But he thinks it's the 27th or maybe the 28th. So when he's told it's the 25th, it's the gift that they gave back, because he quote, you know, passed or whatever, right, right, he gets the time back, he got, he got a second chance, so he was able to go back and that was their gift, the ghost's gift to him after psychological.
Speaker 2:He goes back in time. Interesting, you know, I act. That's not what I noticed, but I did notice what I think is an inconsistency in the timing of this movie. They say, ok, yeah, they're going to be visited. He's going to be visited upon every hour, right, right. And the first one starts at when the when the bell tolls.
Speaker 3:I don't remember Like is it like the clock strikes 10 or something, maybe.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, no, no, super late, One or two yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway. Then, when the it's after midnight, then when the ghost of Christmas present is like disintegrating and, you know, dying because he only exists in the present, which makes sense, he's like oh, I only exist until the, you know, until the end of the end of the day, and he dies at midnight, right? So I don't know, the timing doesn't really add up. It's a little weird.
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess they're taking it as like he's at night, asleep and ghost. So I think that the malleability of time makes sense.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I mean, he's time traveling. Yeah, he's time traveling.
Speaker 3:He flies over, you know, london in here, which we got to talk about that for a second, because that's one thing I noticed this time that really made me laugh and it is very funny if you go back and watch it, because what the hell is Gonzo hooked to Because he's flying with you? If you watch the rope, it looks like he's like hooked to his crotch, like unsighted, as like robe, and then it goes to the other side and it's on the other side of the robe and it's like what the hell is he cooked to hook to?
Speaker 1:No, you know I had. I didn't notice that.
Speaker 3:You got to go. I watch it out. This whole time I was chuckling to myself watching it. I was like, what does he? He's hooked onto his waistband or something. But it's like, but you could. Then he cut and you see him in the front and now the rope goes to the back. It's very funny.
Speaker 2:So this flying scene again. I mean I remember watching the making of this back and we were kids and that was a big deal then. You know, of course I think it was blue screen at that point. You know, it was the technology, it was it was the beginning of green screen.
Speaker 1:It was literally one of the first green screens and they were like look what we can do.
Speaker 2:It's him. He's flying over them. You know, it was amazing. I mean it still looks great because it's a fantasy piece and the characters look great. The ghost of Christmas when we start, we start with past. Yes, the little angel, I mean all three of them are so distinct.
Speaker 3:Ghost of Christmas past has a way of being creepy, but also not scary. Beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1:And initially that was. They composited it to try, obviously, but they tried to do it in oil.
Speaker 2:Get the flow, so it's in water. Yeah, she was underwater, so they're under oil. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So they're puppeteering her underwater. Wow, that's so that. So that's so, it's she. I think she's a marionette, and so she's being marionetted, so they marionetted a thing through water.
Speaker 3:That is, how would that?
Speaker 1:work, and then that's what gives her the you know, the theory it's amazing, that's gorgeous.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it really is incredible. Like I'm guessing that is green screen that they're compositing into a shot, Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah, that's what Brian said, which we haven't even mentioned, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is the RIP Jim Henson movie. This is the first one dedicated to him is right at the beginning. This is the one after he died that was made after he died, can you imagine, I mean.
Speaker 1:And so Brian, his son, had never directed a movie before Right, which Michael Cain did not know when he accepted the role.
Speaker 3:That's hilarious.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean this guy was super, I mean he still is huge, I mean the guys are entire lives, but in 92, obviously and I think he'd already won an Oscar, I mean he was just massive and for some reason our listeners didn't know.
Speaker 2:Probably everyone does. But you know, the Jim Henson puppet company that you know started all these things and started the Muppets and every other amazing puppet you can imagine. Yeah, the 70s through today, you know, was started by Jim Henson, led by Jim Henson and then taken over by his son, brian. Yeah, this was. You know Jim had died and this was the first, the first movie that Brian was leading with.
Speaker 1:What an amazing like to think of the and I don't know, none of us know, brian but to know that this was the first outing after you know, my dad passed and I crushed it. Yeah, of course, and it's an instant and huge.
Speaker 3:I mean it's obviously a labor of love and homage, but I mean they also you can't discount the fact too much also that you had Frank Oz.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:He's been a consistent creative force.
Speaker 3:Sam Eagle animal Not to mention he's during this time also in the 90s, he's just come off a bunch of films as a director, like live action and you know, and you know puppets, I mean, I mean Muppets are live action. I mean they're just puppets, live action, they're just kind of their own thing. Yeah, they're like. You know, it's like he's such a creative force and so smart, like even the way this reminds me, like when he does a little shop of horrors, like the sets are like smaller on top and kind of angled, so it makes everything feel more claustrophobic. This is the same way, but it's like everything's rolling, like the streets are, like you know, curved in, the backdrops are angled.
Speaker 1:And if you look at all the like the door frames, nothing is linear or parallel. And of course you know and you guys wouldn't bring this up because you're too cool like that and you're very humble but for our listeners, these guys do know Frank Oz and they were able to spend some really good time talking to him and it's a fascinating guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we've worked with him. We don't hang out with him.
Speaker 3:I'm not saying you're having a pretty village, Just you know, yeah, but he's a big, I'm a big big.
Speaker 1:Frank Oz. We're huge fans and you guys got to you know, work with him, which is awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, obviously his work is incredible. This has been throughout time Like it's definitely something he's like somebody look at and you're like how the hell are you so good at this? And not in. He's also the thing that I was most impressed about with him is he's at all like. He's not in, not a like diva whatsoever. Right, he's a very down to earth, there's kind of normal person. His mind just thinks like that. So again, like this movie, it that's. It feels logical. You know what I mean. Like it feels everything that happens as stupid as it is. Even when they're doing these dumb jokes like Rizzo the rat jumping off of the thing off of the great or the the wrought iron fence into the snow. I mean they how many times they play this joke? Like four times.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, and then when he, when he crawls through, he crawls back through to get his you can fit through there which is straight up stolen, and I mean that in a lovely way from the pink Panther. So the pink Panther used to do that all the time. This is the sixties cartoon. It's not the, not the Peter Sellers, but but it's the cartoon. And that's exactly what pink Panther did all the time would lock himself out, then go around the door to open it and then go back around, yeah, so falls out the fence and then afterwards he, you know he crawls back through to get his what had or show Jelly beans.
Speaker 3:Jelly beans, of course, and then Gonzo just goes.
Speaker 2:he goes, you can fit through there. And goes, yeah. And then Gonzo just looks at the audience no, no, no he doesn't.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no. Gonzo looks at Rizzo. This is what really stuck out to me this time. I was like this is the one moment I think could have been sharpened a little bit, because that joke is so funny. All he needs to do is like to look at him and go and then walk away. But he looks at me and goes you're such an idiot. And I'm like talks the other way. And I'm like wow, that in another watching it started that started to stick out and I was like that's just really an aggressive line for Gonzo. You know what I mean? Like I don't know, just felt like it was a little too much.
Speaker 1:Up to this point, had only been shot out of a cannon.
Speaker 3:Right Well and loves chickens. Yes, he's a foul effort.
Speaker 1:But and also, too, that scene. By the way, brian talked about this in an interview. I saw where that was something that didn't move the plot forward, but he was trying to figure out how to get them around to the bedchamber, sure, and then that joke happened and they were like, oh, this is too good and it's fantastic. It's one of the best jokes and one of the funniest little moments in the movie. And, yeah, it doesn't move the plot forward. It's not from the story, it is specific to like just we need these people to be over here, so we get them in an interesting way.
Speaker 2:One of the things is sorry, god going on, that, I mean, you know, this device of these storytellers, of these narrators in this film is just so great. And this kind of brings us back to the beginning, you know where. He brings up the first line in the film and then he keeps going. And what's great about it is that they're funny. They're the clowns, yeah, but it's, they. Don't dumb it down.
Speaker 1:No, not at all, and this to your point. They don't dumb down anything in this movie.
Speaker 3:But it's a point where the narrator wacky cra, you know what I mean. Like he catches on fire and he has to throw him into a funniest line in the whole movie, like like the lamp, not the rat, like the lamp, not the rat. How many times I mean I love that line. I use that line all in normal life, like just as a joke.
Speaker 2:And they're able to achieve that. They're able to have this slapstick humor, but still quote Dickens verbatim, verbatim.
Speaker 3:That's one of the work really well, I mean they, that is just the brilliance of the Muppets in general, like that world, that's what they can do Well, like I think about the the Sam Eagle scene, you know, and like it's like they make their jokes and they go crazy with the slapstick, but between the dramatic moments and that's why it works so well. Special.
Speaker 2:Michael is in school. Yeah, they're sitting on the shelf, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean. So this made. This is what made me laugh. I was trying to dissect this joke but it's been funny forever. But this time I started trying to dissect it because they cut to the school the first time and it's a dolly down the line and it's like, yes, all the busts, the busts, and like I can't remember who, all it is. It's like Shakespeare, it's like all these famous busts Shakespeare, plato or whatever, yeah, aristotle, and it lands on Gonzo sitting there with Riso, the rat next to him, and it's just hilarious. But I was like, oh, I see it's going in sequence, because I think it was. It was like Aristotle, someone from another time, then Shakespeare, and then I think next would be the next great, would be Charles Dickens, and they put Gonzo, I did the same thing.
Speaker 1:That was the first thing I noticed.
Speaker 3:I was like, oh, he's Dickens and he would be a bust and this scene is sort of a drag scene, like. You know what I mean. It's very, it's a, it's a. It's what you know what you and I would call a lull. You know what I mean. It's a sag, it's where the story is sagging. But they, the way they're doing, is they're inserting these little jokes with now, because they also say like and I just caught it, this watch also because they say one little line of dialogue right before the scene where they're like and the, the, the, the, oh God, what is? It is like in the school. As you know, he saw his life progress throughout the school as the school decayed to the state it was in or something, indicating that across the time he's been there, it started falling apart and losing funding or whatever. And then the bookshelf breaks and they're sitting there and that's when the bus and the whole bit with the bus happens, while Sammy Eagles also doing the wonderful Muppets thing you can do where he's like you're going to enjoy business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and business.
Speaker 3:And then they push it and he's like and you know, you'll succeed as soon as much as this fine institution does, and then the shelf falls. You know right, he's like I've been meaning to fix that shelf. Yes, headmaster, it's just really, really brilliant. It is the American way. No, sam.
Speaker 1:Oh, it is the British.
Speaker 3:The British way, it just is so again. It's just they find their way to just their book ending all the dramatic, and every dramatic moment has a little Muppet wraparound on it, you know.
Speaker 2:So, speaking of dramatic moments, we got to take a step back and go to the brothers Marley.
Speaker 3:Oh, marley, marley and Marley. This is how I was introduced to them when I was growing up. Really, yeah, because I didn't watch the Muppets show. This is what I saw. Oh, you're right, and so what a perfect character. I thought that's what they were. I didn't know they had another gimmick with the balcony.
Speaker 2:So, again, this is one of the Matt you talked about how this was so true to the book. Here's a big change, right? Yep, good point. They took one character and turned it into two because in the book, right, it's just Marley, jacob Marley.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, maybe we make that argument that that's the Jekyll and Hyde, the good and the evil, so it's really the same person. Are they there, aren't they both? Just?
Speaker 2:a shitty.
Speaker 1:No, no one's Robert Marley, it's Marley. I know you were right. I'm sorry, just being a jerk.
Speaker 2:That's the big change, is they changed it and it doesn't. I mean it's completely great, I mean there's doesn't take away from the story at all that they made it two characters and that's such a smart adaptation, but then they aren't trying to like tell a story of who these guys are or whatever.
Speaker 3:They are just a stasis. Yep, they're an exciting incident for the main character. It just didn't work, so like you don't need to mess with that.
Speaker 2:And they're scary, I mean yeah they are. When he walks up to. I will never forget that. That's imprinted on me when he, when Michael came, walks up to that doorbell and it changes to Marley. Oh, yes, that's, that's in me.
Speaker 3:And they're also smart because they didn't try and do two Marleys there, right.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Like they're editing. They're editing themselves to know when it's appropriate and not obey the rules, because a less good filmmaker would say he needs to see the faces of both his people, and that'd be like a note you'd get and you'd be like, well, no, it just, it's one knocker. Like it needs to be one person, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And also it's if you introduce two, that's immediately the audience has taken out, because we assume 90% of the people watching know the story or at least the basis. Sure, yes, absolutely. But that is also a great point. It's one knocker, it's one face Right, it's still Marley, and they are. You end up learning that it's Marley and Marley.
Speaker 1:But also and Brian talks about this too, this is in a same interview that I mentioned earlier he that it gets dark, and this is where he talks about one of the darkest parts of the movie. You know this. And then, of course, you know with every telling of it it's the ghost of Christmas future. But this moment coming into the Marley's is so dark. And then, like, when you look at the set pieces of this now it's very simple, there's not a lot of set dressing you can tell it's a small studio in this particular room where his bedchamber is, and like that terrible and terrifying moment where he hits his own, uh, bathrobe or, or, or you know, bedrobe, where he thinks it's a ghost, like that buildup is so terrifying. And then, yes, you get the Marley's, who are also terrifying, and then they sing one of the best songs.
Speaker 3:One of the best songs.
Speaker 1:It's such a fun song and I think, being an as an adult, or just as a kid, the rhythm of that is so smart. To your point about telling a good um, um, uh, uh, telling a story in a in a great way. So, speaking of um, if uh, telling it in a great way, well, I was trying to key up something, but apparently that's not going to happen, so I, uh, I did so, but this also made me think about, like, did they get a second chance?
Speaker 2:Oh, they got a second chance. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean just so good, it's so good, oh oh, oh, my God, I just looked at my notes and that's like I kind of I'm sorry. I gotta jump back a little bit.
Speaker 2:Okay, jump back, jump back. Do you have something to finish on? No, no, no, no, we're you know, we're jumping all over, jumping all over the place.
Speaker 3:It's totally fine, did you guys notice? And so the opening scene, which I love, like the whole thing, it's so good, it's so so good. But they I want to talk about a couple of things in it. There, there, he's, there's a line in there. Even the vegetables don't like him, but it's Fawzi Bear's voice, right? I didn't catch that till this watch through. If you watch, it's like it is Fawzi's voice, just on a random character that they have just into the world. But one of the most brilliant things I think about that I gotta go back to is I think it's just brilliant, brilliant writing, because in the lyrics of the song, like the end of the verse, is you come to the little mice, which the voice work on the mice is super interesting too, and they were just so cute.
Speaker 3:There's, you know, what most people are tempted to do whenever you have, like a little character like that is being like meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh meh meh, well, chipmunks.
Speaker 3:But no, they didn't do that. There's a family and the male characters had almost like real male tone, like adult, human or male tones, and it was just mixed and smaller and a little fainter, but they didn't change the pitch. It wasn't really a pitch thing, what's always really interesting. But then they got the writing into one of the verses like it's even worse for us mouses. And then one of them goes like please, sir, can I have some cheese? Which I thought it's hilarious. But then fast forward to the end of the next verse and the mice writing the things and they're like and there's no cheeses for us mises. And I was like, oh, you guys are geniuses how you worked the Oliver reference in. You timed it to the music and then you called it back and made a joke on yourself.
Speaker 1:I mean, just talk about brilliant comic writing, brilliant comic writing, and in a Dickens world, yes.
Speaker 1:It's massive, like so many great layers, and you don't have to know it and the joke still works. And this is. You made me think about this, one of my favorite, and I'm a great paraphraser. I'm a terrible quota of people that I just adore or just look up to, but I will paraphrase. And so to paraphrase CS Lewis about storytelling and especially for children, children's stories. He said a children's story that is only good for children is not a good children's story. To begin with, right, of course, and this is one of those moments where it's like, yeah, a kid's not gonna know that, a kid's gonna totally just think it's cute and it's fun and it is, and a joke lands and you learn about timing and humor. But then, as an adult, when you've had more experience, it doesn't. You still might not get it, but if you do, like the layers of appreciation are there and it's just, oh, it's so good because it doesn't hang on the thread of you having to get it, or execution is so good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you don't have to get that, it just is inherently funny. That's something you get Like the play in the language. You just get Like you don't have to explain it.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's true. Every idiot who goes about with Christmas.
Speaker 3:You know you're in great hands. The moment you know this movie's gonna be fucking awesome is when Michael Cain turns at the door and they push in on that close up of him and he just stands there and he goes humbug and it just, he just.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's at the end of the song. The button on the front Push on him, yes, nailed him, and they all scatter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they all scatter. He turns and look and they all scatter, and then he stands there and looks and he goes humbug Amazing. I mean just.
Speaker 2:Brilliant I mean truly, truly brilliant, a true sense of the word. Brilliant I mean because, again and now, we've reached the point where we're going to talk about probably the most memorable thing about this movie, no doubt the reason everyone remembers it and the reason it's still being watched and talked about to this day, because we've already talked a lot about Jim Henson Company and the Muppets and how great they are, but obviously the something that makes this movie exceptionally special is Michael.
Speaker 3:Cain. Michael Cain is in an Ibsen play. Yes, you know what I mean. Like he really is. He's going to what's the Royal Shakespeare Company in, like Scotland or whatever he's like he's going to that. That's where it feels like.
Speaker 1:You talking about the Edinburgh Festival?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, he's going to Edinburgh to step on the stage and do King Lear. I mean, that is the level of performance you got here.
Speaker 2:I believe he said that much.
Speaker 1:You know the quote is I treated it like I was doing a performance for the Royal Shakespeare Company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go Makes total sense. You know, he just decided that from day one. Like that's how I'm going to do this.
Speaker 1:And I think it was kind of I mean, at least the legend goes, but I think he's confirmed this. It's similar to Gene Wilder and he's saying I will only accept Wonka if I can do this one thing where he like tricks the. Does the cane and the roller? Yeah, because then you know he's dangerous and he will do anything Right. And Michael Cain said I will only accept this if I can play it straight.
Speaker 2:And he does it his way. And he does. You know, if you've ever watched the Michael Cain acting for a film, oh yes, he implements his lessons 100% where he's. You know you don't blink and then don't be blinking. If you blink, it weakens yourself. So you know it's like I'm not going to blink, I'm not going to move a muscle unless I mean to move it. You know.
Speaker 1:And if I know where the camera is, I'm going to give you three quarters of my face, like it's such like technical stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're absolutely right, timothy B Murphy, definitely, you know, took this class.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and just okay. That made me think, though, too, the Kermit in this also so good Like this is, and it's the free Bob Cratchit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep beep that and that specifically.
Speaker 1:So this is obviously the song that he and Tiny Tim are singing and that performance, which it's Jazzy, right, and it's it's Steven Whitmer who's playing Kermit and would play Kermit for a while, but I mean it's in the hands at this. Again, this is after you know, jim has passed and he sang it and this was I think I think Brian said this, but I also noticed it it's he sang it like Jim Henson would sing, it kind of like the singing it in that jazzy, pushing the, the rhythm a little bit and and being able to scat so well and that joyousness of just like the beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, and it just felt good and that. I don't know if we want to talk like the technical stuff about how they pulled that off.
Speaker 3:I love the little, the little rolling wheel and the moving backdrop. You mean, yeah, like again. So I was thinking about this and it feels like they did a rolling wheel in front of a green screen or a blue screen or whatever, and then they did a tracking model shot. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it felt like they could pause them together and it was one of the few times because they do it in the other, in a, I think in the Muppet movie, where you see them full bodied Right.
Speaker 1:But it's one of the few times and you have the, the actors or the puppeteers right there, like they are right up on them, because normally they're reaching way out Right, so they're out of frame, but they are up on them and it just gives it this such incredible tight control. And going back to the Michael Cain thing, every movement is so specific and it's also something I think from a broad term we could talk about that. What's fantastic about the Jim Henson school and the Muppets themselves is they're so specific. Nothing is wasted and nothing feels not clean, like the corners meet where they're supposed to meet. The choices are deliberate, because there's a lot of people who do great work in puppetry, but there's something that they, which is why a lot of people in our profession want to emulate that, because there's a specificity, a uniqueness and a realness to it. Oh my God, there's no tongue in cheek.
Speaker 3:We have to talk about puppets for a second. Sure, because puppets are like a thing, right, I mean they date, I mean back thousands of years or whatever, but the Muppets, I think, are probably the peak of, they're the standing on the parapet of best puppetry of all time, in my opinion, consistently, they're so interesting. The characters are also different. In such an diverse world and whenever you do these things, I've been lucky enough to work with the Muppets on a show, that's right, and it was very, very interesting because they were only in one number of the show but and it was a live performance and they, when they came in, the performers are all like they had their own dressing room and it's where they work on the puppets and they have so many different versions for different aspects. I mean, it is truly.
Speaker 3:This is not. You don't build one Kermit and then Kermit goes out and you just fuck with a puppet and move the camera around. That's not how it works. So they have like six or seven different versions that all do different things and they're all designed specifically for shots and specifically for how they use them and it's so that they come alive. And whenever you work with them on set, everyone is looking at the puppet.
Speaker 3:When they're made well and they're performed well, even when the cameras cut and stuff, it's amazing, because I'd give notes You're giving. You find yourself looking and giving notes to the puppet and they usually stay in character because that's the way it is. So it's. It's also for the actors on stage, like because they all feel, and I remember. One of the things I'll never forget is whenever I did that is, they had their little dressing room and no one was allowed in the dressing room except for the muppeteers. Sure, because they don't want you to see six different versions, because as soon as you do see six different versions of Miss Pacey, the string yeah well, it loses the life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's sort of like how an actor and a stunt person come together to make one character in an action movie or some kind of extreme thing Like this is what they all these different iterations of this art puppet, come together on set and in front of camera to make a character come to life.
Speaker 3:But only the artists want to be a part of that process and building it, because it takes it away even from the performer. Because if you had to like, stand here and, yeah, talk to a thing, and now you go into the room and there are like six of them lying on a counter. It removes the magic and it really is. The muppets are. They're truly brilliant at that and it is unbelievable to watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I shout out to it. It reminds me when the Mitt Wilton yes.
Speaker 3:I were one of our, which was made by with this is we're referring to a commercial series that we all made and Matt was the puppeteer for. And then we had one of our artists who lives in Germany, switzerland now, was a friend of mine from college and she'd spent years working at the Henson shop and building stuff and we this is a Henson style puppet and the same thing. We took it to a live show and you were coming out of a trash can, right, and you know for a company, and that company built this trash can and the same thing. People would come up and take photos.
Speaker 3:Takes, people would take photos with me and I would have to like stay and you stay in character, like they come up and the same thing, like even when we're shooting the spots you know we shot a few like commercials with like every the actors, everybody like myself I know I've known you for how long Exactly After lives and yeah, and you're like buried down in a thing and everybody walks up and talks to the character, to the puppet, because it just is alive, it just is and it's. It's such an incredible art form.
Speaker 1:And it's so like it is important to your point. It's important to the creators, to the puppeteers and to the people who are in it, like, in this case, michael Cain, to not let that down, like that is part of the magic, like I want, I know, like you know, it's like Michael is walking on. So they shot this in a huge studio in London that was my wood studio, yeah, and it's not built for sure. It is. I don't know that for sure.
Speaker 3:I'm not. I think it was. If it's in London, is most likely Pinewood right. Isn't that like the big, big one? That's a big one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'll come to me and that. But they didn't have. They had to dig out the floors and for the puppeteers and of course. So every single scene we're watching in the movie, Michael Cain's walking on planks. He's got like, except for, obviously you know, the studio floor where you can see it.
Speaker 2:Well, I wonder if that makes sense, because you know they shot him up, you know camera angles are all at him. So I wonder if they were able to get inside those trenches, and I'm sure they were.
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, I will say that's one of my favorite things about this, this film is, it feels like to me, of all the Muppets, it is the most finally integrated with human and Muppet.
Speaker 2:You think?
Speaker 3:about the great Muppet caper, which I love. I mean, I love all these movies, they're all awesome, but I think about the. That is usually like it's six, you know, seven foot Jason Segal and then a tiny character next to him. You know what I mean. Like. And this one feels like the way they staged it into the lens, like if you watch that opening sequence again, it's they're all. The Muppets are in the foreground and then the people are in the back and they share the same vertical space, right. And so even when they integrate with each other, they're always staged in a way that they feel like they belong in the same world and they're never. And it's. I think it's truly one of the successes of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're right, and it reminds me of what was taken to the nth degree later, not with Muppets, but with forced perspective, with what Peter Jackson did for the Hobbits Right.
Speaker 3:Well, an elf did it too, like I mean. I mean, people forced perspective has been around forever, but, yes, the people that can master it at that high level.
Speaker 1:When it's like at Disney World, all those, when you walk down Main Street, all those houses are done in forced perspective in real life, so that as you're walking them, as you're walking down, they actually feel bigger and taller than they actually are.
Speaker 3:All right, yeah, of course I mean that's genius, that's genius design, and that's what they do.
Speaker 2:So all the different technologies involved here are so incredible. And what I think is great about this movie is that they use all these. It's like you're talking about Steve, like the different puppets and when to use each one. And you know, I feel like so many people like to say blanket statements like I don't like CGI or I don't like, you know, puppets or whatever it is. But what's great what we know works really well and is timeless is when you integrate all of it. Right, like Jurassic Park uses puppets and CGI you use one for one moment and another for another moment. So this thing about it this is a movie that does that as well. Right, we have, you know. So hand puppets for a better term, like what that? Yeah, the Stam Muppet thing.
Speaker 1:Right Hand puppets, rod puppets, marionettes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you have all those body puppets. You have full body like a ghost of Christmas present.
Speaker 1:That's a guy in a suit. It's like 14 puppeteers doing his face. That's a guy in a suit, right yeah it's a guy in a suit, then you have you know which I mentioned.
Speaker 3:His face is animatronic, yeah no, it was remote.
Speaker 1:It was like 14 different people did him yeah.
Speaker 2:Then you have computer animated things. I mean I don't know what the ghost of Christmas future was. I mean some combination of a guy in a suit and but there I mean there's yeah, because that was also a rod puppet.
Speaker 1:Look, it felt like it was similar to Sam the Eagle, which is a half, and half and half, which is because you know.
Speaker 2:Then you have models, then you know like real, real live models you have. You know blue screen, green screen, flying, all this technology, and you combine it all together to create this magical world and I think that's what's great.
Speaker 3:I mean it's when it works. I mean and that's again, this is not like people messing around with it, you're talking the peak of artistry and engineering and people that are know how to bring a character to life. So I mean, ok, back to less, less technical and more story stuff. Sure, how many times do they play the joke of Rizzle? The Rat falls off of something. I count three. Oh, because in the beginning he falls off. It's a very small joke, but they're like his neck is a small rat.
Speaker 3:He's a small rat. Good job, matt. They're like, they're on the window looking at the thing and he wipes the window with them. Rizzle is like I'd like to thank you for making me a pot of this Great line. I love that line, anyway. And then he's sitting on the window sill looking in and, like his nephew is coming, I don't see him. And then all of a sudden, the nephew comes in and Rizzle goes and falls into the snow.
Speaker 2:Wait, is that when Michael Cain opens the window?
Speaker 3:No, no, no, that's not that one. That's what I'm saying. That's the first one. The second one I can think of is yes, when Michael Cain opens the window and falls out of it.
Speaker 1:Oh, at the end it's like so four so I think of four.
Speaker 3:Third is the one when he jumps off the rail into the snow and then goes to get the jelly bean Missed. And then the fourth is like the lamp, not the rat. Like the lamp, not the rat, and then falls into the water.
Speaker 2:Well, if you want to count the bookshelf that you mentioned, oh, that'd be five.
Speaker 1:Well, because the other one is are we safe up here? It's at the end Are we safe up here? Oh, yeah, he's. He's been Scrooge, has been saved. What could go wrong? And then that's when he opens the window and they fall out. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and that's at the very end Is that the same, or is that the same one?
Speaker 1:That's, that's, that's the one where he like what day is it, oh my gosh, can we talk about that little Muppet, the cutest Muppet, oh my God, the rabbit? So?
Speaker 3:that one, I think, is new in this movie for sure, and I don't know what else he's from, but that one sticks With me. Oh, it's so sweet. My entire life I've loved that Muppet.
Speaker 1:King Wenceslas looked out on the face of Stephen.
Speaker 3:And he throws the thing out and he's like Penny for the song Goughna.
Speaker 1:And then you see him freezing in the paper bag.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, oh my God, that shivering Broke my heart as a kid.
Speaker 3:Every time I was like get him a coat.
Speaker 1:He's so sweet, and then so when he's yelling at him at the end, obviously like after he's been changed, like I would be terrified the fact that he I also love that he makes him.
Speaker 3:What is it? What the hell Michael's cane performs is so wonderful, but in the end he makes this little kid carry around this huge turkey. And what the hell is Michael Cain doing with his hands? Oh yeah, watch it again. Just watch Michael Cain's dancing. He's dancing, but it's like only his hands and a little bit of his shoulders.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it really is the Show Choir 101.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's very, it's very much like a. He's like he's got down the humbug and the undertop of cheese and you know this. He's like it's when you get to the like the musical number where he's singing and happy. It's like all right, be happy, mr Cain. And he's like I am happy.
Speaker 1:I mean we need to see a little more.
Speaker 3:This is me at happy. This is I'm very happy.
Speaker 1:Oh, which, by the way, and now, do you guys remember this song that is actually cut out of most of the versions?
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, it's the man. It's a sad song, it's so sad, but it's really good. It's the, the, the, the the girl friend when love is gone.
Speaker 2:Beautiful song. Oh yeah, yeah, I you know, but I remember watching when I was a kid. I wasn't digging it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was bored. Look, I mean when I was a kid I was like what is this part?
Speaker 1:That's why they took it out. Yeah, I was going to say the executives weren't wrong at that level, but when it comes to the story, I did miss it. The, the, the. The storytelling aspect of that is so rich and it comes back at the end. Is it when love is gone? Yeah, when love is gone, yeah, and it sounds like to me it is yeah. There it is. This to me is like the Muppet Christmas Carol meets Les Mis.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's a beautiful song, but it is she, it is a love. I mean I will say, if you're this actor, you know you're in this thing for like two minutes, oh yeah. And then you got one big song and it's like supposed to be the big heartfelt thing. It's gone. Then they cut it, like it's like yeah, this is it.
Speaker 2:Now I don't know when they cut it, because I always remember that. I remember seeing that they're in the snow right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and no, is this it. This is not the finished version of it. Oh, it can't be. No, this is, this is not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, yeah when, because it's when it doesn't sound like that it's more whisper.
Speaker 3:No, it doesn't sound like that. It's more wispy and anyway and it sounds like it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, honestly, it sounds like it's straight out of Les Mis, and especially her voice. Wait, wait, wait, here it is. Oh, there we go.
Speaker 3:Is this it? Yeah, I don't think this is the performer I remember. No, no, this is not the voice.
Speaker 1:This is not her.
Speaker 3:This is not her. This is the song, but this is not the version of the song, you know. But I'm with you. Like when I was a kid, I was like, let's get back to Rizzo the Raph.
Speaker 1:That is true and it's exactly what they do. But this, the character building that's happening in this moment, because it also reminds me this, and so in Rocky and I remember my, so my nephew is a huge Rocky fan and and I asked him I said, did you like the first Rocky? And he said, well, it's the slowest and interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, now, he's not wrong. No, he's definitely not wrong, but it's also the by far the best.
Speaker 1:It's, but exactly, but it's all that character development that's spent. Now he's 13.
Speaker 3:So I understand, of course.
Speaker 1:And if I'm 13 watching that and I'm 13 watching this, I don't want all you know. I don't want all the character development of Rocky, because it it's not what I'm there for and I don't need the character development. Well, you also don't understand it, you know and I think that's why I mean I was watching this as a 10 year old kid and I just didn't understand that she was breaking up with him.
Speaker 3:Because he's like he has a fear of committing, is he always wants more money and whatever he's committed to, is he's choosing his work over her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when love is gone. Yeah, I mean the best, the best.
Speaker 3:I mean again talk about great writing, but he's like I love you, belle, and she's like you did once.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is heartbreaking.
Speaker 3:I remember that I was like but that is an adult, it really cuts.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, baby like oh no, yeah, as a single man, that one cuts. But that like that is also I know where. So to circling back to what we were saying, that was kind of funny about what Michael Cain trying to dance or whatever, the fact that he was able to just like jump in and want to do it and then it gets cut. It's like dude, you got in there, you're saying a duet, you're not a singer, you crushed it. You were like I'm game, like the accolades, that one of the most I don't know. I don't want to say underappreciated, because the movie is very appreciated. But what's so underappreciated is that this is a straight 180 from what this guy had been doing. Now, granted, he was working on Jaws the Revenge, which is Jaws 4. So I mean Michael Cain.
Speaker 3:Michael Cain.
Speaker 2:Yeah sure, yeah, it's in Jaws 4.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's in Jaws 4. But you know, I mean the guy won the Oscar for Hannah and his sisters, I mean, and had been obviously I can't remember what year that was, but obviously had been around and was well known and just dramatic. And then it's like didn't need to sing, you know Right. And then it was like, hey, can you do this? Abs, it's for a quote, muppet movie which, just until people recognized how you know top class that was, it'd be easy to dismiss.
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 1:No, it feel like I don't want to do a kiss maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, he jumped in and then to have it cut, which kind of. But I will circle back and say what you said, james, as a kid, I didn't, I wouldn't have missed it. I don't think I would have missed it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the Disney version that's online. This is what I watch. I wish it was on Disney Plus. Yeah, same, and that version is best, for I mean, I don't want to say it's best.
Speaker 2:So it's cut in that version. It's cut, it's cut, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's fastest for a kid. Hey, can we talk about Fezzy weeks party for a second which? Looks like a real banger of a party. Rubber chicken plant, rubber chicken plant and then again awesome Like. But then the animal. Again, I am here for an animal gag. I know it's coming every time, but the like, I know it's coming and I'm here for it. I love it. This one they were very restrained in, but they're like. I mean, we got to give the animal lovers a little bit of something, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, and that's it. And that's Frank Oz oh, that's. Yeah, I ride Right.
Speaker 3:No, no, no, no, just goes nuts Ding ding, ding, ding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, is it back to the future? But your kids are going to love it.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:So that's Ghost of Christmas. That's because past Past still. Ok, we've not even gotten any we talked about past, but we got to talk about the Ghost of Christmas present.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is obviously the best song in the film of many good songs. That is the whole. Oh yeah, that song.
Speaker 1:like you know what I mean, I think Marley and Marley is the one that's like the earworm that like just won't get out. Yeah, it's like a Marley and Marley Whoo. Yeah, it's just that one gets stuck in there. No, I mean and I hate to make this a reference but it's kind of like a Hannah Montana song. I could not name a single Hannah Montana song. Yeah, exactly, because if I do, it's going to be stuck in your head, got it? Well, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Thank you for that. Thank you for that.
Speaker 3:So Ghost of.
Speaker 2:Christmas present song.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the big. I mean just so wonderful, that character, that jolly big character. So much fun. I mean how they aged him over the yeah, it was beautiful, it was subtle, and then it picks up speed and then you get the big, sparkly things at the end when he disappears, which you know is it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels like Christmas. Is that what we're talking about? Feels like Christmas.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is the feeling of the heart.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, exactly that's the one. 1800 of his brothers came before him.
Speaker 2:Yes that's such a great line yeah, and it's just, and you realize, you know so when I was watching this I didn't realize what that meant, until he's disappearing at the end.
Speaker 3:Yes, right, he's fading away and you realize. 100th time, that's it.
Speaker 2:You know he is the ghost of Christmas present. He only lives for this day. Yeah, you know the stroke of midnight. He leaves at the stroke of midnight and that's it.
Speaker 3:But that's what the go. I mean, that's what this ghost of Christmas present represents. Is that Christmas spirit, that jolliness, that feeling of being around people you love and like, the things and the magic of the day? And then it just, it does, it dissipates and sort of dies.
Speaker 2:And he is a Santa Claus type. He's a Santa Claus for sure. You know, they did really well right, they, they, they skirt that line really well. He, he is Santa, and yet you know, they don't go too far with it. He's not saying he's not wearing a red hat, but he's not bringing the but you get presents, but it delves into that joyousness.
Speaker 1:Yes Side of it, yeah, latter Day not so Icelandic, not the Icelandic version of Santa, which is, you know, not as joyous and happy.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly, I mean because you know he was friends with Krampus.
Speaker 2:but an amazing character. I will always remember so happy, so jolly.
Speaker 3:You know it's my favorite section of the movie, for as much as we've talked about everything else. When I watch it, that section is the section that I love.
Speaker 2:You know I'm here and know me man Exactly.
Speaker 3:That was a really good impression. It was nice. I'm really into that.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a good job For Lord of the Rings fans, and there are a lot of them. I'm Bombadil, tom Bombadil. I mean, this is Tom Bombadil and we didn't get that for people who only know the movies. There's a character in the books that's not in the movies and everyone who'd read the books wishes he was, because it's such a fun character. My favorite character in the whole series. When you think about it, this is the best. I mean this is never I never, yes, I never,
Speaker 3:thought about that, but this is Tom Bombadil.
Speaker 2:That's what it is. It's kind of magic. You know fairy, but robust. You know magical and whimsical, but grounded and hearty.
Speaker 3:I mean, these are also my favorite type of puppets, these like huge, you know, like I mean it is a character. You know I mean that thing, when it moves, is like everything on it, has like a reactionary, secondary move. You know, I mean like the hair, the hair and his costume is so beautiful, it's wonderful, like it just looks like so much fun, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I love how they end with the his sizing, because of course he comes in and he's massive, he doesn't fit in the room, and then later you see him with the Mises I was trying to decide what the why does he come in and be start so big and then immediately shrink down? It's in the text, but I can't remember why.
Speaker 3:off the top of my head, Our literary listeners will you know, I thought when I saw I watched this movie last night and I watched again this morning I love it. I love this movie, like, and it just I immediately thought I was like, I have to. I went to my New York Public Library app, which, if you're in New York, and I got to say this like they have.
Speaker 3:Yes, libby, libby, it is amazing. I don't know if this exists in other things, but I just found it this year because a friend of ours works in New York Public Library and he mentioned it to me. Oh right, and I downloaded it and it is awesome, like it is an incredible app, and I like I have a card for Queens and for New York City so I can like rent a couple books and I do audio books a lot.
Speaker 1:I love audio books, yep, but I went and looked and got me into audio books. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Well, you're welcome and Libby has the best player, but I'm already on the wait list because everybody's trying to read a Christmas Carol right now, so I'm trying to find one that I can listen to, and they have one. I think it's narrated by Tim Curry that I'm on the waiting list for I'm excited about that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, you got to talk to Matt Mundy here because he knows all about Gothic horror Christmas tales, which the Christmas Carol is one of them yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, a lot of people don't realize this, but this was a huge trend in the 1800s of publishing these ghost stories during Christmas, you know, and we don't think of today. You know, these days, I don't think we think of Christmas time, as you know, ghost story time, we think of Halloween, as that Right In the 1800s it was very much so and it was kind of like it gets cold, you know everyone's, you know, sitting around their place by the fire and there's no street lights.
Speaker 1:You know, like they put that, they have lamp lighters, right, and so the lamp lighters turn the lights off and there's no. You know, I mean, this is before gas, obviously, but it's Victorian, which is when it happened, because Victorians became in love with the dark ghost story and also murders, right, and any of our listeners who are and they may be, you know, trent I would say, was it the, not the murder mysteries, the true crime, true crime.
Speaker 1:It's like all of that stems from this, like there is a you can see from the design of Victorian era stuff.
Speaker 3:We, like you know, we've been like you know that that is all like the wigs and the tight and the oppression and the high collars and everything sort of like you know, tapestries and rugs and bullshit. You know like it feels like that sort of haunted world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, and I've, and there is. I mean, there's a series of books that are out and they and it's great it's there Most of them, I believe, are edited by Philip O is his last name. I can't remember his first name, but he's a brother of a dear friend of mine and he edits these and he's put out four or five of these in the last four or five years and they look at the serial storytelling of that time. They're from newspapers and from pamphlets and books and just writers that we wouldn't know and at the time, which we take for granted, that a Christmas Carol just stands out, right. It's like, you know, jurassic Park stands out but everybody writes about dinosaurs, but not everybody talks about the people that write about dinosaurs. We talk about Jurassic Park and, like, a Christmas Carol is the one that stands out of all these ghost stories, and I've read 60, 70 of them. Wow, you really are an efficient.
Speaker 2:It was a genre. Yeah, and that's what's crazy. You don't realize a Christmas Carol was a. It was in a genre of interesting ghost story Christmas ghost stories and then you start to see it. Once you learn this, you start to see it like in Christmas songs. You know it's the most wonderful time of the year. There'll be scary ghost stories and tales of glory of Christmas is long, long ago you know it's like scary ghost stories in the middle of the Christmas song. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And they knew. And then what was? What's the first line of this book, steve? You mentioned? It earlier, the Marleys were dead to begin with, exactly we great opening line, and also to how brilliant that has to be, because if Marley is not dead, it doesn't mean much. But if the Marleys were dead, this entire story revolves around. You, the reader, you, the viewer, have to know that they didn't just show up at my house, they were dead, right, that is the most important thing here, because if they weren't dead, none of this story matters.
Speaker 2:If they were, you know, hold on to your butts, um well, I get the sense too and this isn't really in the Muppet Christmas Carol, I don't think, but it's in the story. I get the sense that there is a lot of meaning in that. Where it's like, I get the sense that the Marley well, in this case the Marley Brothers weren't necessarily, um, you know, good people to begin with you feel like they were kind of always shitty and like they might do a shitty grave, and during this story we get that. You know, scrooge had this glimmer of hope when he was a young kid, you know, and with the love story, you know, with the relationship, you know like maybe he could have been different, you know, but he turned away.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:And there's still that oh, it's not too late, you can still come out of this. You can still, you know, open your heart, that type of thing which is what Spirit it is all about, and you've got to go watch it.
Speaker 1:I'm just telling you, look at this, it turned into it all the way around.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean what are the final thoughts, kind of you guys have on this.
Speaker 2:Well, before we do final thoughts, we have to talk about the Ghost of Christmas Future. Sure, sure yeah.
Speaker 1:And by the way, just for anybody who would care, it's the Valencourt book of Victorian Christmas ghost stories, and they have volume one, volume two, volume three, volume four.
Speaker 2:And that's completely apt for the Ghost of Christmas Future. Because the Ghost of Christmas Future is terrifying. I mean, if this wasn't a macabre kind of scary movie. At times, when you get to the Ghost of Christmas Future, all bets are off. It's fucking terrifying, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's the Grim Reaper. I mean it's a grim reaper Again it is a grim reaper.
Speaker 1:And I think to me, no matter what you do, if you're telling and this is just me personally anybody that wants to attack this story or attach themselves to this story and feels compelled to tell this story, you can miss on a bunch of things. But if Ghost of Christmas Future is not scary, what are you?
Speaker 3:doing. That's the whole thing right. You have to Like. What's the point the conventional story is. He has to turn the corner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's baked in and it makes me wonder, like so is the Ghost of Christmas Future? Like that way to every? Would that be the spirit for everyone? Or?
Speaker 3:is it just because it's screwed? It's a good question, because we only really see the rehashing of this story.
Speaker 2:It's usually it's his future Right and his future is death Right.
Speaker 1:Well, I think everyone's future is also true.
Speaker 2:I mean 100% right there Also true, so maybe that's terrifying, but not just the spirit.
Speaker 3:Well, it's like all the things that it gives him leading up to. It is like the things that impact him or not that he is dead, as much as that. It's like that his life didn't matter how people react to it Right. He is literally just a he's. You know what is it called? The carrion for vultures. Yeah, it's come on the heels of him.
Speaker 1:Like him being able to listen in and this is where I joke sometimes about the psychological torture of an old man, but the truth is he's been able to hear what people actually think about him, right, yeah exactly Like it does take away the veneer of protecting myself and I'm OK, and I'm fine, I'm doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the impact. I mean it's very Maya Angelou, and what I mean by that is people don't and this is again a paraphrase people don't always remember what you say, but they remember how you made them feel.
Speaker 3:Right Sure For sure.
Speaker 2:And this is that moment. I'll cratch it. You know everyone. And it goes back to what I was saying before, where it's like again, like I feel like if you showed the Marley's this, they wouldn't care, or I get that sense. Interesting, you know it's like you know, they'd be like fuck him, you know, yeah, but there's something in Scrooge where he sees this reaction.
Speaker 1:When do you think that happens? When do you think the first moment of Scrooge melting happens? And I'm going to say specifically in this where do you think that?
Speaker 2:in this movie, in the Muppet Christmas Carol I think it's during the song we just played it feels like Christmas. There's a great moment. It calls back to what you were talking about, Steve, with the Mises. The Mises Because he bends down and he goes down to the ground and he looks through the mouse hole and he looks at those Mises in there.
Speaker 1:And Ghost of Christmas Present is in there, in there.
Speaker 2:And he kind of, and he smiles, he has a little bit of a smirk. Yes, I think that's the first time I was like, oh shit, he likes, he's like, well, I think you know.
Speaker 3:I think the real trigger moment was the whole, like going back to his fiancee movie For sure.
Speaker 1:I think that's the whole thing he's like don't show me this, Don't show me this, please.
Speaker 3:The trigger of the moment that caused him to lose touch with humanity. For sure, for sure. And then now he's open to the moment where you know what I mean, they can be shown. You know the present of things around him that could be, he could have a positive impact on, and then he's shown the future for what will happen if he doesn't change himself, but on that point.
Speaker 2:I just got to hit real here because I know we got to wrap up, but I got to hit the selling of the bedsheets that moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's great. Oh yeah, it's so.
Speaker 3:Are they worth more? Because they're warm?
Speaker 2:It's impactful in the story just in the sense that they're set like this guy's dead and these people came in here and took all his shit and they're selling it. Yeah, those character old Joe, it's done in the movie so well, old Joe is a spider, yeah, yeah. Oh man, it's so scary and creepy and it's very quick, but it's just like ah man. That always stuck with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know it's great. Yeah and it's where, like Michael Cain is, or Scrooge at that point is breaking. He's like show me some tenderness or I will soon be overcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's again I will say, like what the words they gave Michael Cain, feel like a direct yeah extraction.
Speaker 3:And same with the Gonzo feel like a direct there's a lot of verbatim verbatim or almost verbatim, extraction from a Christmas Carol, which again is why you think it works so well, because you've got ridiculous Muppets compared with one of the best classical actors of the century, say saying some of the best words from historic British fiction, and then you've got the peak of slapstick Muppet comedy. It just the contradiction works so well and so many ways it's so fun.
Speaker 1:I would say it's like more from a musical standpoint. It's like counterpointing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's exactly right the count. It is a counterpoint. You know he is playing this sort of like. Yeah, I'm going to get real metaphoric here. He's playing this sort of like cello, very you know moody melody. And then you got this kind of like you know trumpet with a plunger like over the top of it. You know what I mean. And it's as if it was written by you know Rock, mononof or something. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like it's brilliant, big credit to Jerry Joel, who was the, you know, the writer of the screenplay, and him calling for that to be like. We need this. This is what's going to make the story stand out. Because, and as we ask, you know, in making movies ourselves, why does this story need to be told? And, of course, with a and if you can't answer that, don't do it.
Speaker 1:And if and if you think about this, why does this story need to be told? Well, because, and then we see, because it's one of the most faithful retellings of it, and all the counterpointing makes it that much more colorful. Because it has the cello, it has the trumpet with the you know, I can't remember what that's called the toilet plunger. Yeah, the toilet plunger, that's the technical, the technical term. Yep, I mean, that's what it is. Yeah, slide out, slide in my DMs and come at me the Jesus Christ. But it also, I also just want to say the moment where Ghost of Christmas present and I know we got to, you know, but when he, like, he's standing behind Scrooge and Scrooge is in Cratchett's house and you see that he's connected with this little, innocent, tiny Tim and he can't take his eyes off of him. And I think the quote from the book is Scrooge kept his eyes on tiny Tim until the last, so as he's transitioned, they show that in the shot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, like the, background Don't they say that in this movie, and then they say it yeah, they say it, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so verbatim, so much of verbatim, which is, again, the prose is beautiful, back to where we started with this whole thing and, steve, you asked for, you know, closing thoughts and I mean I think it ends where it starts, which is, you know, talking about the fact that they added the narrator, yeah, which was Gonzo, and then yeah, here's your counterpoint, right there. And yet he was also Charles Dickens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3:It is just, I mean, the big question we always ask and I guess I'll start this one because I'm here Does it hold up? I mean a thousand times yes, I might watch this movie a third time before Christmas. I mean, this movie is awesome. It is more than a turn on in a hotel. It's like seek it out and turn it on immediately. You're missing every time. You haven't watched it a year.
Speaker 1:It's event.
Speaker 3:Watching it. It's event. You got to see it once a year for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, at least for me what about you, james, of course I mean of course. It holds up 100%. I watched this as a kid. It was amazing. I watched it again as a teenager. I thought it was amazing, I watched it again. I watched a lot of the stuff that I watched when I was a kid, again in college, when I first thought at least I thought at the time I was an adult. Oh right, yeah, well, I was different than I was when I was a kid.
Speaker 2:You're the first plateau of adulthood and so a lot of that. I was rewatching stuff like this. I was just like, oh my god, this is amazing. And I rewatch it now and it's incredible. I think it holds up. I think the true test is if kids today can watch it and enjoy it and I think they would, and I think if they don't, then I'm going to shake my fist here and say they don't hold up.
Speaker 2:But, I think it absolutely does. I think it's a great retelling of a classic and, like we said, it makes it funny but doesn't dumb it down, which I think a lot of filmmakers can take a lesson from today.
Speaker 1:Yes, well said, both of you guys like yeah one. They don't dumb it down, they lean into the prose, which is 19th century serialized prose that's meant to be as wordy as possible, and yet he writes a novella, right, right, it's straight to the point and he's economic in his writing. I mean, this comes out of a place of desperation, and so much art we talk about comes out of desperation. He's been, he's in debt. He grew up this is Dickens, by the way, of course. Yeah, not Gonzo. Yeah, not Gonzo. He was never in debt. He made a lot of money on that, first firing out of the canon. But I mean, this is a man with his kids and he's had failed businesses, but he never gave up. He kept writing, he kept doing all these. He was an entrepreneur and as much as one could be at that time. And then he writes a story out of desperation, which means I don't have time to BS, I've just got to get out what I want to tell. And yes, it was at a time when the genre was hot, so people were already primed to be into it. But then to economize all the emotions that people are going through and what people wanted out of this time Again, the Charlie Brown Christmas talks about this.
Speaker 1:Oh, I forgot about that one. That's not a Christmas Carol, though, sorry. This is a great Christmas movie. I love it, but it's the economy part of that storytelling. That's a 22 minute show and this was supposed to be a TV show, and I love a TV movie. A TV movie, yeah, a TV movie.
Speaker 1:I love that this not only holds up as a Muppet movie, it holds up as a Christmas Carol and it holds up as a Christmas movie on the whole and that, I think, speaks to one the economizing and beautiful poetry prose, rather, of Dickens and the respect that it was dealt with and the respect that they dealt with the Muppets which, to your point, the Muppets are silly, crazy and they're all over the place. But that doesn't mean they're not also serious. It doesn't mean that when Mrs Cratchit, ms Piggy, who does not have a large role, when Ebenezer Scrooge does the only thing I did not like, which he plays, that mean trick on Cratchit at the very end, the very end, yeah, before he gives him a raise, and you see Piggy just explode and that was beautiful, like of course she would explode. She doesn't do something silly and crazy, it comes from a real emotional place.
Speaker 3:All Muppets always come from a grounded place.
Speaker 1:Even when they're the most ridiculous things.
Speaker 3:They come from a grounded place.
Speaker 1:So I'll land my whatever plane to say not only do I think it holds up, I think that it will continue Like if I'm going to be, I'll stay as humble as I can about it, and I think it should. If it doesn't, it should remain one of the best Christmas movies, as long as anyone is watching Christmas movies.
Speaker 3:I'm with you, man, 100% Guys. I loved hanging out with you and talking about the Muppet Christmas Carol and it felt like thank God we got to watch this one. You know what I mean? I love getting in the year on this, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, look, it's been a great year, guys. Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanzaa, happy Festivus, feliz Navidad, happy Holidays in general, and happy New Year for the coming year.
Speaker 3:Happy New Year to everyone out there. We'll see you in 2024. Marley and Marley.
Speaker 2:Whoa.
